199 replies to this topic

[Graystroke]

We need to send Bob to Boloney, err.... Bologna!

Bwaaahahaha.......

[Graystroke]

Rossi:

"The incredible thing is that this characteristic is similar to all the Ducatis I've ridden since 2010: whether it's the version with no chassis, or the one with the carbon-fibre front, of the one with the aluminium front, or the one with the full chassis... it doesn't ever change, that's incredible.

"The engine is another very important problem. We need a more manageable engine: ours is very aggressive, more than Honda's and a lot more than Yamaha's.

"By looking for top performance you might end up neglecting rideability a bit. That's a mistake. What do you need all that power for if you can't take advantage of it?"

[banzai132]

We need to send Bob to Boloney, err.... Bologna!

I am just wondering if they are so twisted up with chassis stiffness this engine position that, the basics might escape them?

[banzai132]

Bwaaahahaha.......

You laugh, but I said it the beginning of '11 that they needed to try a chassis material that offers more feel. And they did it!

Edited by banzai132, 13 April 2012 - 01:06 AM.

[Gary]

You laugh, but I said it the beginning of '11 that they needed to try a chassis material that offers more feel. And they did it!

I don't think that feeling was unique to you, but I'm pretty sure that someone on the team has thought of rake and trail.

[tz250w]

Funny how the L shape seems to work just fine in SBK, but not-so-well in guided missiles... err, MotoGp.

While all the... err, two other manufacturers have nice tight compact lumps they can move around inside a relatively short wheelbase, Ducati's engine dictates it. In supers, I guess, the larger production bikes' chassis keeps everyone in the same ballpark. Even there Ducati has the longest swingarm and wheelbase.

I guess they're just finally finding out that it's fundamentally flawed. At least until they introduce a minimum wheelbase rule (maybe there already is one... Ducati need to get it stretched if there is, lol).

[Gary]

I don't think that there is a minimum wheelbase rule. In the 500s preventing wheelies dictated the minimum (about 55 inches if I remember correctly), now with all the 'mass centralization' and electronic crap, who knows?

[tz250w]

Well, the more they strive for the maximum corner speed, the less interesting it's going to be to watch. I think most will agree it was a lot more fun to watch them slide it in and out of corners than going around like they're on some sort of magnetic rail that defies physics. Great for still shots though...

Heck, remember those scenes of Rainey and Q-tip exiting the Dunlop and Spoon turns at Suzuka? Back then, sliding a 500 was akin to seeing how hard you can pull the tail of a sleeping tiger before it wakes up (and eats you).

[Gary]

That's purely down to electronics in my opinion. Until the rider's wrist controls acceleration we'll never see that again.

[redmike34]

Back on the civil war discussion...

http://moto-racing.s...aid-red-said/P1

[Spoone]

I've had it in mind that Ducati's engine has been a nail for ages..

[Graystroke]

Funny how the L shape seems to work just fine in SBK, but not-so-well in guided missiles... err, MotoGp.

Quoted from the Motogpmatters article of 8/8/11:

What Works In WSBK Won't Work In MotoGP

But if the L configuration is the problem, how come it works in World Superbikes? Ducati has dominated the WSBK championship over the years, and Carlos Checa is well on his way to wrapping up another title for Ducati aboard the 1198R, fitted with a 90° L-twin engine. So how can a design that is ripping up WSBK suddenly be such a disadvantage in MotoGP?

The answer to that question is to be found in the underlying cause of the MotoGP machine's problems: the tires. The World Superbike series use Pirellis as the spec tire, and the Pirellis are a completely different beast. The construction of the Pirellis is much less stiff, making generating heat in the tires a much simpler task. With a front that sticks and provides feedback, the 1198 responds perfectly, and the L twin engine is much kinder to the rear tire than the four cylinders, allowing Ducati's WSBK machine to be competitive.

The Bridgestones, on the other hand, have an incredibly stiff carcass, built to handle the stresses created by Grand Prix machinery, from the powerful engines, stiff chassis and carbon brakes. Once the tires are up to temperature, they offer astounding levels of grip and feedback, allowing unbelievable performance. Outside of their optimal temperature range, they are much less forgiving, giving little feedback and making the amount of grip available difficult to judge. The L4 being used by Ducati is a prime candidate for the Desmosedici's inability to get the front Bridgestone tires up to temperature.

The irony is that Ducati's early adoption of the Bridgestone tires created a highly-productive collaboration between the two parties. With a lot of input into the development direction, Bridgestone created tires that worked well with the Desmosedici. But as other teams and factories started to switch to the Bridgestones, Ducati's influence became less important, and once the spec tire was introduced, the input from Ducati became just one of the many data sources that Bridgestone used to develop the tires. With data from three Japanese factories using a conventional aluminium chassis and an engine sitting taller and further forward in the frame than the Ducati, the Desmosedici's unconventional design has become less suited to the Bridgestones.

This also underlines exactly how important tires have become since the introduction of the single tire rule. By limiting the design and construction of the available tires to just two compounds (soon to be three compounds, but still), the room to modify the behavior of the bikes using the tires has completely disappeared. Right now, the key to building a competitive MotoGP machine is to understand the characteristics of the spec Bridgestone tires, and designing a motorcycle to suit them, exploiting their strengths and circumventing their weakness. This is a process that Yamaha and Honda appear to have adapted to much more quickly than Ducati has.

[Graystroke]

Back on the civil war discussion...

http://moto-racing.s...aid-red-said/P1

Thanks Mike.....great article.

[damo]

You know I'm sure the bike ain't the best, but I can recall many races where Melandri and Hayden were finishing outside the top 10 regularly but if Stoner was outside the top 5 people were very critical. Now we have Hayden finishing 6th and Rossi 10th people seem very willing to blame he bike 100%. I realise that even in 6th Hayden was 28 seconds off the pace at Qatar (and Barbera 30), but in 2008 Melandri was 44 seconds behind Stoner and in 2009 Kallio was 34 seconds back (and Hayden nearly 50). Funnily enough in 2010 when Stoner lost the front while leading Hayden finished less than 2 seconds from the lead, even though it became apparent the Duc had some pretty severe front end issues. Taking the Stoner factor out of the equation if we look at the 2nd rider, the Ducati isn't any further from the front than they have been in many past years. Rossi doesn't get paid 15m to just whinge about the bike while finishing behind his teammate.

[redmike34]

You know what though, Gray? The WSB success has to be taken in consideration with the fact that only three of their titles in that series have been achieved while running a bike with equal displacement to the competition, and of those three, two of them (2003 and 2004) were in the restrictor plate years, when the twins had ~20% more airflow than the fours did. I think Bayliss' 2006 title is the ONLY WSB title Ducati won that was actually achieved without an engine advantage of some sort.

So... it's hard for me to take seriously the idea that Ducati's configuration works fine there--they've almost always had a capacity advantage, which could easily make up for other disadvantages their bike may have. On evidence of their MotoGP results, Stoner excluded, you have to come to the conclusion that with an equal capacity engine, Ducati occupies a tier of bike engineering capability somewhere between Honda/Yamaha and Suzuki.

[banzai132]

I don't see why Ducati can't make the bike weigh 340 lbs and then just bolt 10 lbs of lead behind the radiator.

[Gary]

You know what though, Gray? The WSB success has to be taken in consideration with the fact that only three of their titles in that series have been achieved while running a bike with equal displacement to the competition, and of those three, two of them (2003 and 2004) were in the restrictor plate years, when the twins had ~20% more airflow than the fours did. I think Bayliss' 2006 title is the ONLY WSB title Ducati won that was actually achieved without an engine advantage of some sort.

So... it's hard for me to take seriously the idea that Ducati's configuration works fine there--they've almost always had a capacity advantage, which could easily make up for other disadvantages their bike may have. On evidence of their MotoGP results, Stoner excluded, you have to come to the conclusion that with an equal capacity engine, Ducati occupies a tier of bike engineering capability somewhere between Honda/Yamaha and Suzuki.

And even in 2006 the Ducati had much more freedom in engine modification than the 4 were allowed.

Damo, look at 2010, Hayden was doing better than now, but if your point is that only Stoner rode the Ducati well I think we are all in agreement.

[Graystroke]

I don't see why Ducati can't make the bike weigh 340 lbs and then just bolt 10 lbs of lead behind the radiator.

They HAVE tried that......

[jose_jimenez]

I've had it in mind that Ducati's engine has been a nail for ages..

The thing is, it's not a nail. It's a beast. The problem is the weight distro and power delivery. The engine's main problem is the bulk of it and it's placement in the chassis. They should eventually be able to get the power delivery to Rossi's liking via electronics but the bulk of that engine and the handling problems caused by these newer tyres is not something that can be solved easily or it would have be done last year.

[Gary]

The Ducati engine has plenty of power - fastest bike through the traps at Qatar. Apparently the power delivery isn't too sweet.