84 replies to this topic

[Dan]

Start of the Casey Retirement Tour

Come on Cal.

[ninjasquaddie]

Scott on it.

[Pick]

Scott on it.

As is the case most of the weekends in practice. I'd like to see him finally turn the practice pace into a podium or win.

[Gary]

If it is a normal weekend he'll shred his tires by two thirds distance. I think he's getting a little large for Moto2, could be wrong.

Edited by Gary, 18 May 2012 - 09:39 PM.

[Dan]

Pick-meister! Keep posting

[ninjasquaddie]

Toby and Julian were talking about the difference that 10kgs makes to a rider's weight. In moto2 they reckon the bike needs 4.5bhp to make up the difference. In MotoGP on 1000s the difference is negligible and 10kgs is worth 1/100th of a second. That evidently was from a USA university somewhere.

If there's spec tyres and engines, it's unfair and wrong that there's no minimum weight limit.

[Gary]

I will never favor a combined weight limit.

[ninjasquaddie]

Good for you.

So how about Moto3 / 125s then. They've only had it since time. The fact is that where there's a deficit in power in a class that runs spec engines and tyres there should be an equalisation that stops larger riders from being penalised. Their size doesn't affect things in the unrestricted class.

[Gary]

Ninj, did larger riders get faster motors before the series was spec (250s)? Motorcycle racing is a small man's sport, always has been. Is it fair to give a smaller, less powerful rider a heavier, more cumbersome bike? No.

The only thing the spec rule did was give larger riders equal power. In the past Marquez would have had the fastest motor and things would have been less equitable. The fact that these new tubs weigh damned near what a street bike weighs is also to the larger riders favor.

I say if a limit is imposed, do it such that a 150 kg rider can be competitive. Otherwise it isn't fair to them.

[ninjasquaddie]

The 250 class was an open spec on engines and tyres.

Next.

[Gary]

Right, so there was no advantage, engine-wise, for larger riders.

If all things are spec, it makes LESS sense to bring the rule in.

Edited by Gary, 19 May 2012 - 06:47 PM.

[redmike34]

I'd agree with you, ninja, that in the bigger class weight doesn't matter much in terms of straight-line acceleration or braking. I'd find it hard to believe, though, that weight doesn't make a difference in cornering. I've never done any in-depth study into the matter, but intuitively there's only so much friction force that the tires can exert in a lateral direction when the bike/rider are going around corners, and that friction force is going to be more easily overcome the heavier the bike/rider are.

Which is not to say that I'm in favor of adding weight to the bike to equalize things, as there's a big difference in dynamic weight (the rider's bulk being able to move around on the motorcycle) and dead weight (ballast), but I don't think it's a coincidence that almost no world champion-class riders have ever been much over 160-170 lbs...

[ninjasquaddie]

Right, so there was no advantage, engine-wise, for larger riders.

If all things are spec, it makes LESS sense to bring the rule in.

Eh? The fact was 250's were an open class with the ability for a team to pick any manufacturer and engine and any tyre they saw fit. There was the potential to select an engine and jet it etc as they saw fit, to match the characteristics of the rider.

I'm seriously wondering whether you're just trolling for an argument now because your logic is utterly bollocksed.

[Gary]

So you feel that larger riders had more powerful engines in 250? I'm not trolling, I'm disagreeing. I know that you hate that, but this topic pops up periodically and my opinion never wavers.

Jetting to suit a larger rider? Seriously? You don't jet to suit the rider, you jet to suit atmospheric conditions to maximize the power and to avoid the engine seizing if you go too lean - it has nothing to do with rider preference. You determine how to jet by doing a plug chop and examining the plugs to see how efficiently the fuel is being burned, not by asking the rider how it feels.

250 teams got the most powerful engine they could get their hands on, regardless to the weight of the rider, and generally the fast guys, who tended to be smaller, got the really fast stuff. The difference now is that even the larger riders have the same engines.

Yes, larger, heavier riders are at a disadvantage - just as they always have been. If you weight the bike, smaller, lighter riders will be at a disadvantage because it is much easier to move a rider's weight around than to deal with a heavy bike, but it would be occurring because someone has decided to give them a disadvantage rather than because of a natural condition.

Jim Race used that tired 'I know better because I raced' bullshit in banzai the other day - I never seriously considered racing for one simple reason. I'm 6'4" and if I work out like demon and diet like hell I can get all the way down to 250 lbs. Life's a bitch, sometimes you have to roll with the punches. I'm too large to race other than to be a backmarker, and there will be talented riders who are too heavy for Moto2.

What weight should this be set to? Redding's? Smith's? Or should we use my theory of 150 kg riders so fat asses can be competitive too? There are too many regulations now. Leave it alone.

[ninjasquaddie]

Well,having spoken to a good few about this, most notably Neil Spalding, and listening to others such as Julian and Toby, they all agree that in a class where there's a control engine and control tyres, there should be a minimum weight. As they stated, there's a 4.5bhp equivalent deficit per 10kg of weight. In a spec series, that's not fair. There should be a weight limit and it should be fairly set so it favours neither lighter or heavier riders, as that's the point of fairness. My point about 250s is that there were many variables and they could be tuned to maximise the rider. In a spec engine and tyre series, there isn't. There's a weight limit in moto3/125 because it evens things up. There's none in MotoGP because the weight differential causes negligible

[Gary]

I agree about the difference in MotoGP being small, although I still hear other team managers commenting about Pedrosa's speed being related to his weight. Watching him turning his fast lap today, he was on the gas early and HARD. I don't think weight has anything to do with it.

[ninjasquaddie]

That's the point. In MotoGP it doesn't.

[Gary]

I fully understand your point, Ninj. I simply disagree. Let me state that I have been around this game for a long time. I haven't raced but I've known a lot of racers, talked to a lot of famous guys from the past (and none from today) and I formulate my own opinions. It doesn't faze me that I disagree with Ryder and Moody, for example. These guys are experts because they've been following the sport for decades. Just like me.

[banzai132]

It looks like DePuniet figured out a new way to crash.

[Graystroke]

I will never favor a combined weight limit.

why not?